La muestra empieza con esta cinta transportadora.
Es un elemento clave para esta representación de lo cíclico, de que las cosas van, vienen, vuelven a pasar por el mismo lugar, se acercan. Esta obra es como un ícono de eso, una especie de time machine, hasta puede no ser de un aeropuerto, no tiene siquiera equipaje, pero como en toda la muestra vas a ver que hay temas que se repiten, que se acercan, que se alejan. Me pareció importante empezar con una obra que represente la circularidad del resto.
¿Por qué obras desde 1980?
¡Yo era bastante joven! Ir más atrás hubiese sido una pedantería. Tenía 18.
¿Dónde pintabas al principio?
Pintaba en mi cuarto y en lo que era el cuarto de servicio, que no se usaba. Si mis padres estaban de vacaciones usaba un consultorio que tenía mi mamá. Hay una sala con obras de los años 80, muy representativa, de camitas y grandes espacios. Después tuve mi primer taller en Larrea y Córdoba.
La cama es una de tus imágenes icónicas más reconocibles. Lo mismo el colchón.
Estaba con la cama, la deshice y apareció el colchón, por supuesto que está presente desde el comienzo. Pero la presencia es la cama. Quería ver qué había debajo de la sábana. La obra más emblemática de ese período que me guardé para mí, una de las pocas que poseo mías, si bien no es la primera camita que pinté, tiene un aspecto infantil, algo malhecho, una perspectiva forzada. Conservar cierta frescura, cierta torpeza.
¿Dormías bien en los 80s?
Dicen que si uno se acuerda de los 80s, es porque no los vivió. Pero yo los viví. Acá hay cronología, pero está un poquito rota. A partir de mediados de los 80s, de algún modo decidí que la figura humana vaya desapareciendo. Un espacio vacío, una silla tirada, eran mucho más dramáticas que la presencia de una figura.
Hay cosas en tu catálogo que me recuerdan a Bacon.
Fue mi héroe, me influenció de mucho más joven. Puede ser que esté presente en lo mío. Hay obras que si querés tienen un aspecto más provocativo y explícito sobre el orgasmo, la acción de llegar o arribar a un lugar, por eso ves algunos splashes. For the record, ¡no es real! Es una mezcla de plasticola con pintura blanca.
¿Estudiaste arquitectura?
No.
Pero tenés una fascinación.
Interés más que fascinación. Durante casi 2 años trabajé sobre muchas variaciones, siempre sobre el mismo apartamento. Después trabajé con una arquitectura que ya no era familiar y hogareña, sino cárceles, cementerios, estadios, hospitales, grandes estructuras públicas. Hay cárceles más mentales, sin puntos de control, entrás y no salís más, tienen la celda, el inodoro, la bacha y la cucheta para el preso. En un estadio que pinté son miles de butacas numeradas, pero tampoco hay una demarcación deportiva. Parece un estadio, pero puede no serlo, es de 1992. En otros casos las estructuras están todas patas para arriba.
Tu obra en general siempre tuvo un toque dark. Aunque hoy te veo en beige y Nike.
Fui muy poco dark. A lo sumo algún lío con mi pelo, pero no mucho.
Los mapas son inevitables.
El primer mapa en la muestra es de 1987, uno de Praga. Pero no fue importante esta vez tener el primer mapa, la primera cama, pero prefería que esté la obra con más fuerza y no que sea tan un documento. Hay una cama de la Tate Gallery, que vive ahí en un cuartito, tuvimos la suerte de que nos la prestaran. No es fácil. Hay obras de MOMA, algunos museos realmente difíciles en cuanto a préstamos. Así que tuvimos esa suerte.
Después la cama se volvió una cama real, e incluyó mapas también.
Fue un momento importante, es una obra muy emblemática. La cama pasó de ser un objeto pintado a tridimensional, de algún modo todo lo que cubría la cama se corrió y aparecieron estos mapas. Sigue siendo cierto que la cama representa una especie de espacio o escenario donde sucede gran parte de las experiencias humanas más fuertes. Pasamos ahí una cantidad de horas infinitas. Es ese escenario donde sucede la vida humana. Es un espacio público, te diría.
¿Crees que estas instalaciones te pusieron en el mapa a nivel internacional?
Sí, creo que sí. Fue un momento en que mi obra tuvo mucha más visibilidad, mi obra anterior era más visible en Europa y América Latina, pero esto fue más al resto del mundo y Estados Unidos. Para esta muestra hubo miles de reuniones con curadores, qué cosas me gustaban, detalles que vienen al caso. Pero les dije que tengan en cuenta que no quería quedar como aquel artista que hace mapas. Hay una sala, pero no es sobre eso. Es fácil encasillar a los artistas en Estados Unidos. Tuve mi breakthrough, pero quería deshacer eso. Es cuestión de desarmar ese cliché. No reniego de la obra, pero no quiero que se simplifique todo lo mío en un elemento.
¿Qué te produce ver una obra tuya en un museo? Ir como un anónimo, cualquier día, y verla.
Es raro, de chico fui al MOMA, por ejemplo. Veo una obra mía y me da muchísimo pudor. Hoy vine para instalar la muestra, pero estar en un museo en un día común me produce un pudor tremendo, no me da gran curiosidad parar la oreja y escuchar lo que la gente dice. ¡Muchas veces no dicen absolutamente nada! Es algo privado, entre quien ve la obra y la obra misma. Yo ya estoy lejos
¿Hay obras favoritas? ¿O una? ¿Existe ese pensamiento?
No tengo obras favoritas, en general. Hay obras que me gustan más o menos, pero no tengo ese apego, no las hago para que queden en mi casa. Ni siquiera para verlas yo mismo, no tengo ese regodeo.
El teatro es otro elemento.
Hay un ala de la muestra de todos teatros, quise dar una impronta muy clara, vistos desde la perspectiva del actor, y apuntalar a una especie de juego entre el blanco, negro y rojo, que se da mucho en mi obra. El teatro para mí fue una influencia desde el comienzo. En obras de los 80s ya tiene una presencia fuerte. No tengo una formación clásica en artes visuales, sí me formé de muy joven como director teatral, fui a unos cursos que hacía Jaime Kogan en el teatro Payró hace mil años, y era muy importante, aunque no tenía ningún plan de hacer teatro. Si robar conceptos del teatro para la pintura, así que es parte central de mis influencias. Aunque es difícil hablar de influencias tan puntuales.
Intentemos.
La primera vez que ví un Picasso fue determinante, uno de esos de corridas de toros, con mucho color, y dije: “Wow, ¡esto es más fuerte, no sé, que Superman!” Ahí es cuando te cae la ficha de un artista y me encanta, son larger than life. Empiezan a formar parte de uno y ahí quedan. Después, mucho no se mueven.
¿Tu influencia en otros? La Beca Kuitca es un ejemplo.
La Beca Kuitca es casi un nickname que quedó, empezó en 1991, con algunas interrupciones, que se deben a mi necesidad de separarme un poco, porque le dedico muchísimas horas y energía, y es un proyecto muy exitoso gracias a los artistas que pasaron que son de un talento inmenso. Soy muy afortunado de estar cerca de sus procesos creativos. Creeme que no hay demagogia en esto: me enriquecen. Ellos influyen también en mí, totalmente, más de lo que yo influencié a ellos. Es hasta constatable. Hasta en obras mías uno puede ver que hay gestos que ví en pinturas de Alejandra Seeber o Mónica van Asperen. Estoy pensando en tantos que se me borran un poco.
¿Y tus obras hoy?
Son más abstractas, hacen ecos del cubismo, hay casi un poco de todo, ecos del primer cubismo, o del cubismo latinoamericano, como Torres García, visitas y revisitas. Es como samplear muchos artistas y jugar con eso. Me siento muy liberado, y me costó mucho ser un pintor abstracto. Es como un largo camino la abstracción. El recorrido de un artista no es lineal.
¿Qué te hizo ser pintor?
Empecé a pintar desde tan, tan chiquito que ya no me acuerdo. Cuando decidí ser pintor, ya lo era. Ya era un poco tarde para tomar una decisión distinta. Según la historia familiar, a lo mejor alguna maestra dijo: “Este chico tiene talento.” Era tímido, pero no cuando pintaba. Y a lo mejor, ese chico cuando pintaba era mucho más valiente. Más seguro de sí mismo.
¿Te salvó la vida esto?
Esto me salvó la vida, sin duda, pero no de forma tan dramática ni literal. Es muy difícil vivir la vida sin saber qué cuernos hacés en ella. Es el vehículo que usé para moverme como pude, con más o menos certezas.
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